Tucker Carlson & Vladimir Putin
A Summary
I lived in Russia for a little under a year. While I was there, I asked a lot of Russians how they felt about Putin (this was around 2012). I remember being surprised how many liked him, even people that acknowledged he was a dictator. I suppose they felt he was competent and cared about Russia. I think my ‘circle’ in Russia was generally well off, so that might be an aspect of it as well. In fairness, when I have mentioned this in the past couple years, I have had other Russian friends inform me of their absolute hatred of Putin.
Now, to give my personal experience in Ukraine (I visited Kiev for ~ a week). I have one interaction that is purely anecdotal, but I think interesting. While on a tour, one of the guides, speaking to my Russian-American friend, stated ‘we are all Russian!’ before granting us access to off limits areas (on the condition that we have vodka with him after). I share this only to say that I find it plausible that there some people in Ukraine who think of themselves as Russian. I think age may play a factor, this person was older and probably spent at least half their life in the USSR.
Regardless of how you feel about Putin, I knew many Russians. They were very welcoming decent people. In my time in Russia, I had ONE instance of someone angry at me for being an American. The other ~30+ Russians in the area basically told the guy to f*** off. Russians, at least in my experience do not hate us and we shouldn’t hate them. I obviously have less experience with Ukrainians, but it was also all positive.
I have seen estimates of up to half a million people dead from the war in Ukraine. I personally do not care about the border lines in eastern Europe. I want people to stop dying. I think that our media is deceptive, acts on behalf of the state and the state acts on behalf of the Military Industrial Complex. If you read my article America’s Waning Power and then heard Putin speak, you might have thought he read my article.
The Interview
History lessons
Putin opened up speaking about the history of Russia. It was interesting (to me), but he was essentially to establish that Ukrainians are Russians, united largely by language, family, culture, religion & history. He states that “the Black Sea region, which was received under Catherine the Great [in 1654] and which had no historical connection with Ukraine whatsoever”. He continues on about borders and politics in the USSR and concludes “So in this sense, we have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin's will.”.
When he gets to the fall of the Soviet Union I think it becomes more relevant to the war in Ukraine. ‘And let's get into the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected that it would be welcomed into the brotherly family of civilized nations, nothing like this happened’. Putin goes into some details, he mentions “The promise was that NATO would not expand eastward. But it happened five times.”. This is true, US Secretary of State James Baker stated “not one inch eastward”[1]. The west, as Putin pointed out, basically shrugged and said, well it wasn’t a formal treaty so it doesn’t matter. Putin then goes on to say that Russia tolerated it because they essentially wanted to be ‘welcomed’ to the world markets. Speaking on Boris Yeltsin’s visit to Congress: “Remember, he spoke in Congress and said the good words: God bless America. Everything he said were signals, let us in.”
Putin details a few other historical events as Russian olive branches and Western rebukes. What is interesting is how he points out assurances and confirmations from Presidents, only later to be rebuked after they speak ‘with their teams’.
Russia trying to join NATO. This did happen. An earlier interview Putin stated “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilized world.” [2]
Putin claimed American support of Chechen Rebels. Russiamatters.org (which has ties to Harvard & Carnegie Corporation of New York) states this is partially true. Or at least partially provable. We know that US officials met with rebels. It can’t be proven that we gave direct aid [3]
Putin did offer to cooperate on a missile defense system in 2007 [4]
Putin claims that Russians were being attacked in ‘disputed’ territories.
The main staple of this argument depends on how much you trust a referendum that had ~90% and 96% essentially reject rule from Kiev[5]. To put it mildly, I have doubts. I don’t mean its impossible that the majority would have chose this, I just don’t think we can put much stake on the referendum that did take place (anytime I see 90%+ on something I have doubts).
To the violence, that is indisputable. This Human Rights Watch report speaks on the use of illegal cluster munitions in Donetsk[6]. Other articles are easy to find depicting Russian war crimes as well. The only real question IMO is if Russia was justified in getting militarily involved to begin with.
As for Ukraine employing Nazis to fight, this is also indisputable. The Azov battalion that the West touted after the 2022 invasion, is openly a Neo-Nazi group [7]
Potential for Ukraine Resolution
The conversation then shifts to more present matters. Would Putin accept the land he now has, he doesn’t really answer the question. He alludes to being able to ‘de-nazify’ the country through agreements. Putin states agreements were “almost finalized” but “the other side threw away all these agreements and obeyed the instructions of the Western countries”. He mentions how Zelensky issued a decree to ban talks with Russia, to be more specific and technically accurate, the decree bans talking with Russia while Putin is the president [8].
Putin reveals he hasn’t talked with Biden since before the war began, though he states “contacts are being maintained”. Tucker seemed a bit shocked by this. Putin reiterates that he will not call Biden. That “If you really want to stop fighting, you need to stop supplying weapons”. I feel like here some real disdain and even mockery of US/Western efforts slipped in, Putin states “Why would I call him? What should I talk to him about? Or beg him for what? You were going to deliver such and such weapons to Ukraine. Oh, I'm afraid, I'm afraid. Please don't. What is there to talk about?”.
Tucker asks about potential for Russia to expand the war. Putin states “It is absolutely out of the question”. Putin mentions the fearmongering of the west and (in my opinion) accurately describes how it is used “In order to extort additional money from US taxpayers and European taxpayers in the confrontation with Russia”.
Tucker brings up Schumer’s threat of US troops deploying to Ukraine which Putin describes as “a provocation and a cheap provocation at that”. He then asks if the US has nothing better to do, “you have issues on the border, issues with migration, issues with the national debt. More than $33 trillion”. Putin also claims that the US blew up Nordstream, basically ‘who has motive and the means’ to do so.
On a multi-polar world
“You know, to use the dollar as a tool of foreign policy struggle is one of the biggest strategic mistakes made by the US political leadership”.
I left that quote above to emphasize how aware Putin is of our mistakes, while our own leadership is still seemingly unaware. Putin details how Russian foreign trade used to be ~50% Us dollars and it is now 13% . Yuan is 34% and Rubble is 34%. He states that other countries, oil producing countries, are looking at other options. “Do you even realize what is going on or not? Does anyone in the United States realize this. What are you doing? You are cutting yourself off.” If you want to know just HOW MUCH I agree with this assessment read my article America’s Waning Power.
Asked about China, Putin Highlighted 3 things.
“It is a boogeyman story. We're neighbors with China. You cannot choose neighbors, just as you cannot choose close relatives. We share a border of 1000km with them”
“We have a centuries long history of coexistence. We're used to it.”
“China's foreign policy philosophy is not aggressive. Its idea is to always look for compromise. And we can see that.”
Putin mentions that the USA is fighting things that are essentially inevitable. “It is not about the personality of the leader. It is about the elites mindset. If the idea of domination at any cost, based also on forceful actions dominates the American society, nothing will change”. Putin then points out that “Russia was the first economy in Europe last year, despite all the sanctions and restrictions.”, despite “sanctions on everything”.
Tucker asked “Who actually makes the decisions?” in the USA. Putin states he doesn’t know, he describes the US system as complex with many levels of government and influence, including within the two main parties. Putin goes on:
“In my opinion, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, such an erroneous, crude, completely unjustified policy of pressure was pursued against Russia… excessive production capacities were created…There were many centers created and specialists on the Soviet Union who could not do anything else…”
He states that ‘they’ convinced American political leadership to work against Russia in order to “create on this territory several quasi state entities, and to subdue them in a divided form, to use their combined potential for the future struggle with China”. Putin is calling out again, the influence of the Military Industrial Complex and its control of our government. Putin continues:
As I already said, the world would nevertheless change regardless of how the developments in Ukraine end. The world is changing and the United States themselves. Experts are writing that the United States are nonetheless gradually changing their position in the world…The only question is how this would happen. Painfully and quickly or gently and gradually
This again is a statement I agree with. The US global empire is coming to an end, if we fight for it, it will be more painful.
On peace, again
Putin state that Russia is willing to talk but Zelensky must end his decree and negotiate. He states that they already almost had peace but the British Prime Minister Mr. Johnson “came and dissuaded us from doing this, saying it was better to fight Russia… We hear all the time, is Russia ready [to negotiate]? Yes. We have not refused. It was them who publicly refused…we could have stopped those hostilities with war a year and a half ago already.”
On other topics
Tucker asked about Russian Orthodox Christianity and its effects.
“Russia has always been very loyal to those people who profess other religions. Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion of those people who came into the Russian Empire. This, in my opinion, forms the basis of both security and stability of the Russian statehood. All the peoples inhabiting Russia basically consider it their motherhood.”
On not killing, Putin replies “It is very easy when it comes to protecting oneself and one's family, one's homeland … As for religion in general, you know, it's not about external manifestations. It's not about going to church every day or banging your head on the floor. It is in the heart, and our culture is so human oriented.”
Tucker asks: “do you see God at work? Do you ever think to yourself, these are forces that are not human?” . Putin replied “No, to be honest. I don't think so”
On AI, including Elon Musk’s Neuralink. Putin closed with “But as soon as we realize that the threat comes from unbridled and uncontrolled development of AI or genetics or any other field, the time will come to reach an international agreement on how to regulate these things”.
Evan Gershkovich
Tucker begins to close and asks “Evan Gershkovich who's the Wall Street Journal reporter. He's 32. And he's been in prison for almost a year… And I just want to ask you directly, without getting into the details of it or your version of what happened, if, as a sign of your decency, you would be willing to release him to us and we'll bring him back to the United States”. Putin replies “We have done so many gestures of goodwill out of decency that I think we have run out of them.”. Tucker presses him a bit but Putin refers to the need for it to be done through ‘channels’ and that the less it is spoken about openly the easier it is to make a deal.
They circle back a bit on things already discussed and then end the conversation.
My Conclusions
First and foremost, I mentioned several times where I agree with Putin on his assessment. This is not an endorsement of his actions, its an acknowledgement of fact, or at least of understanding his point of view. Another important note, Putin is an old spy, he knows there is growing resentment against the Military Industrial Complex, the debt, the position of the dollar etc. As I said on Twitter, If someone with American interest at heart went on a 2 hour rant against the Military Industrial Complex, I’d probably vote for them. Putin has Russia’s interests at heart (as he should), just make sure you remember that.
Putin’s stoicism is something I wish more American leaders possessed, I don’t mean at the personal level, I mean at the willingness to accept things that are beyond your control as opposed to fighting them. I recommend to anyone who will listen to read Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations.
I don’t know how, after decades of lost wars, Americans have in their mind that we will get what we demand. I know ‘we wanted’ Ukraine to win, I know ‘we wanted’ their borders to remain what they were in 2013. I don’t think that is on the table anymore. Let’s advocate for the fighting to end. Let’s shift our focus to demand measures to ensure the safety and liberty of those who may now be under Russian rule. No reprisals, no punishments, full amnesty.
I applaud Tucker for doing this interview. I imagine it was an intimidating situation to say the least. Yes, he will also benefit from it but I honestly believe we all did. If you disparage people for merely opening a dialogue with our ‘adversaries’ know that you are doing a disservice to our country. Dialogue is how we avoid wars. I shouldn’t have to emphasize how important and noble that goal is.
Sound bites will not do, we need long form interviews. Not just for people we like but also those we don’t like and those we are trying to figure out. Putin stated “You said a serious talk, so bear with me please." . I agree (again) serious matters MUST be discussed at LENGTH. Our political debates are absurd sound-bite generating trash and are a disservice to Americans. We must demand better so we can expose politicians that aren’t fit to lead. If we aren’t willing have long and serious deliberations about something, how can we be willing to send people to die for it?
One last quick thing, be wary of what you read from corporate media. Try to research ‘up the chain’ of sources to get as close to the truth as your can. In this case, watch the interview.
Resources
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
Transcript of interview : https://archive.is/sLuOG
Thank you. That was helpful. This war will end with a negotiated settlement. We will be in a better position to negotiate if we understand Putin’s position. That doesn’t require us to agree with his position. But we certainly need to understand it.
Excellent article- subscribed. I visited Kiev back in 2004 and spent a while beforehand learning Ukrainian - I was somewhat surprised when I arrived that everyone spoke Russian and were amused at my attempts at Ukrainian. It's awful that now such close cousins are at war and the West has much to answer for by destabilising Ukraine and then indulging in a proxy war.